never a jw
JoinedPosts by never a jw
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17
End of world predictions/ JW's
by exwhyzee ini thought this was an interesting site that discusses end of world predictions.
http://www.humanreligions.info/the_end_of_the_world.html.
there are additional links at the end of this page.
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43
Memorial Hell
by thecrushed intoday has been one of the most aganizing days since i woke up.
my family has been pressuring me to show up at the memorial for the past week.
it became very intense today with my dad texting me constantly to get me to confirm and when i didn't answer he would call my wife and then she would constantly nag me to answer my dad and so on and so forth.
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never a jw
Even as a never JW I feel for you, and I am doing my own effort to help people such as your wife wake up and live better lives outside the cult. I hope everything is resolved in the best possible way.
I am surrounded by JW's (brothers, wife, children) and for some strange reason they become nicer to me after my rantings against the arrogant liars in the WT. I guess they don't want to confirm what I call their cruel shunning doctrine, so they are really nice. But I am not pushing my luck.
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65
The Kingom of David never existed!
by 5go indavid and the kingdom of damascus.
the city of damascus is at least 4000 years old.
it is recorded as being conquered by pharaoh tutmosis in the 15th century bc and it became the capital of an aramean kingdom from the 11th century bc.
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never a jw
So, in a nutshell, what can some of you long-time members tell me about all this?
Apognophos,
I have no idea about Larsinger claims regarding VAT4956, however I can assure with only .00001% of doubt that VAT 4956 corresponds to year 568/567 BCE and no other year. I have personally spent weeks doing the research using an astronomical program. I found about 18 planetary matches (this alone nails it to 568/567), 7 time interval matches (lunat threes) and 10 lunar position matches, the solstice and a lunar eclipse. Only two lunar positions don't match. I believe those are the ones that Lars and the WT use to make their arguments for their own years. The problem is that they ignore all the other observations (more than 30)
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36
It gets better. Part II of "Apostates are blown out of the water"
by never a jw injust a recap.. i posted a thread yesterday about an exchange of e-mails with a well known and respected elder and c.o.
sibstitute in a spanish circuit somewhere in the u.s. the man is about 50, raised in the truth, belongs to a family where all men are at least elders.
he is proud to have forsaken his dream of becoming a doctor to serve jehovah.
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never a jw
AnnOMaly,
I liked your quote from Ecc 1:18. It's similar to the good Brahmin, but much better because it comes straight out of the Bible. Perfect to use next time...[editing next] Maybe not, it is in the "wisdom is vanity" section.
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DanmeraDinglebum,
Excellent quote, so germane.
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I certainly will keep in mind your words for next time I initiate another e-mail conversation. We have done it several times before, and never before did he write as much as he has this time. Your comment supports his rather unexpected willingness to respond to my emails. I just received his last email few minutes ago. Pretty much is a brief response to my desire to continue the conversation some time in the future and his agreeing with that proposal.
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36
It gets better. Part II of "Apostates are blown out of the water"
by never a jw injust a recap.. i posted a thread yesterday about an exchange of e-mails with a well known and respected elder and c.o.
sibstitute in a spanish circuit somewhere in the u.s. the man is about 50, raised in the truth, belongs to a family where all men are at least elders.
he is proud to have forsaken his dream of becoming a doctor to serve jehovah.
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never a jw
Thank you all for your great advice. As some of you suggested, I backed off and said I hope to resume the conversation in the future. It is rather strange that he actually answers my e-mails. We have exchanged in the last 10 months (since my daughter's baptism) about 30 emails each in subjects ranging from creation to failed prophecy. I threw a number of insults including one where I said directly that he "lacked critical thinking skills and should read COJ, RF and J. Penton's books". His response was: "I see".
It is as if he is probing the enemy to concoct the "antidote" to prevent an apostasy disease to run wild in my JW family and the congregation. Who knows, maybe in the probing he gets the disease himself. Even as a non-JW I still am very much exposed to the effects of shunning. That's why I should act wisely. I have a great deal of interaction and emotional and financial interdependance with all the members of my large JW family (wife, my children, nephews, brothers, many in-laws in my side and my wife's side)
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36
It gets better. Part II of "Apostates are blown out of the water"
by never a jw injust a recap.. i posted a thread yesterday about an exchange of e-mails with a well known and respected elder and c.o.
sibstitute in a spanish circuit somewhere in the u.s. the man is about 50, raised in the truth, belongs to a family where all men are at least elders.
he is proud to have forsaken his dream of becoming a doctor to serve jehovah.
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never a jw
JWFacts,
Great comment.
Snare&racket, black sheep
Thank you for the suggestion. I heard of the name Jehovah not being God's name. I just didn't know the explanation. I don't think I am going to pursue to corner him. The cognitive dissonance does not allow such a thing anyway. But mainly, I am not gonna push any harder because he happens to be a very dear friend to my family, wife, children, 2 brothers and their families.
Tater-t
I am saving your suggestion. We have had a stream of e-mails where I have actually thrown several insults at the leaders of the WT. In previous e-mails he said that he believed that I didn't like the WT because of the God part???!!! I responded that I didn't like the leaders of the WT because "they were dishonest, manipulative and arrogant. I couldn't care less about belief in God or no belief at all".
It's time to let go for now. Besides, I live in the U.S where I own a small business and tax time is looming large. I need to get all my paper work together and determine how much I am contributing to the Obama fund this year. I will pick up the debate with him later.
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36
It gets better. Part II of "Apostates are blown out of the water"
by never a jw injust a recap.. i posted a thread yesterday about an exchange of e-mails with a well known and respected elder and c.o.
sibstitute in a spanish circuit somewhere in the u.s. the man is about 50, raised in the truth, belongs to a family where all men are at least elders.
he is proud to have forsaken his dream of becoming a doctor to serve jehovah.
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never a jw
Darth Frosty,
The elder is a smart man. I don't want to give out too much. Suffice to say that in his direct and rather large family (siblings and parents only) there are some professionals and all the others are known for having a good amount of secular education and a spotless record of "service to Jehovah", except for the disfellowshipped one. His answers are incredible, even to me, who have known him for a while through his speeches and even personal conversations at my own house and other social events. I expected to see his degree of cognitive dissonance in many of my JW friends from Latin American countries who left for the United States and had in most cases no more than 9th grade education. But this guy does not fit the profile of your average JW latino immigrant.
My main purpose is to weaken his faith in his God, the FDS, and also to present in JWN how high the cognitive dissonance runs in the JW's circles
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36
It gets better. Part II of "Apostates are blown out of the water"
by never a jw injust a recap.. i posted a thread yesterday about an exchange of e-mails with a well known and respected elder and c.o.
sibstitute in a spanish circuit somewhere in the u.s. the man is about 50, raised in the truth, belongs to a family where all men are at least elders.
he is proud to have forsaken his dream of becoming a doctor to serve jehovah.
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never a jw
Just a recap.
I posted a thread yesterday about an exchange of e-mails with a well known and respected elder and C.O. sibstitute in a Spanish circuit somewhere in the U.S. The man is about 50, raised in the truth, belongs to a family where all men are at least elders. He is proud to have forsaken his dream of becoming a doctor to serve Jehovah. Loved and respected by thousands.
I asked if he could respond without resorting to ad hominem attacks to dozens of issues raised by apostates. His response was actually more ad hominem attacks.
The following e-mails are the continuation of our exchange until the very last one, 2 hours ago. I haven't responded yet. What would you respond?? How do you handle the unbelievable arrogance?
My response Mr. Elder, You missed the point altogether. My email was not interested in defending apostates' character or their way of life. I reiterate my question: Do they have valid arguments regarding the dozens of issues they have raised against the WT? Without resorting to attacks to the messenger, can you argue successfully against their message regarding 587 vs 607, the U.N. debacle, medical directive inconsistency with doctrine (blood fractions), Bible translation, Bible interpretation, history revisionism, misquoting, quoting out of context, quoting from questionable sources, double standards (Malawi vs. Mexico), unfairness of shunning against those who were raised in the truth, and baptised at a young age, but later disagree with WT doctrine, etc, etc.. I believe this is the fourth or fifth time you avoid a direct and a specific question. I have to assume that you don't have a good answer.
His response
Dear Never a JW,
I do not have a good answer to those questions because I have not taken the time to study them in detail.
I have, however, many times studied similar issues in detail and have always arrived at the same conclusion: they boil down to matters ofopinion that cannot be unconditionally proven true or false. That is the state of things.
This may sound like I'm avoiding the issue, and I am, in a sense. But I have a good reason for it.
To me, the evidence that the Bible is the Word of God is so overwhelming that I choose to devote my energies to understanding it better, and gaining a closer relationship with God rather than spending that time looking into the issues you mention. Time is limited, and, to use a quote think I used before: "If you would love life, take care of how you use your time. For time is the stuff that life is made of."
They say some people cannot see the forest for the trees. I consider many of these issues to be the trees, and I will not allow them to cloud my clear thinking ability, just as you will not allow the Watchtower publications to cloud yours. And that is as it should be.
I know you will find fault with something I have written above. And that is as it should be as well.My response
Mr. Elder, As an avid student of the WT history and doctrine, especially anything related to the 1914 prophecy, I can assure you that most arguments don't boil down to opinion. But if you are avoiding the issue "for a good reason" I must give it a rest.
Just like in the Good Brahmin story by Voltaire, there are people today whose sole purpose is the pursuit of happiness. You may be able to handle that kind of life. I can't. Principle and truth are more important to me.
[I added the story of the good Brahmin to the email, but I don't add it here to make the post more readable. http://www.philosophicalsociety.com/Archives/Voltaire's%20Story%20Of%20The%20Good%20Brahmin.htm]
His response Dear Never a JW,
I wish you would not consider my avoiding some subjects as a lack of desire for truth orprinciple. I am completely dedicated to these.
I realize now that one of the sources of our disagreements is that you are in pursuit truth, whereas I feel sure that I have found it.
Once we are thoroughly convinced we have arrived at the truth, further searching would not only be fruitless, but and we may even be led, due to the enthusiasm of discovery, to dislodging the truth we have correctly acquired.
"Make sure of all things: hold fast to what is fine." -
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new member- my story
by AndDontCallMeShirley in"that which can be asserted without evidence, can.
be dismissed without evidence.
" - christopher hitchens.
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never a jw
Welcome Not Shirley. Never walked in your shoes, but I know the WT doctrine and history better than the elders of your last congregation. Be certain that I feel your pain. Look forward to your posts.
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Apostates are blown out of the water by an elder's response to my e-mail
by never a jw inthe following are two emails (one mine, one from an elder) that are part of an exchange regarding the unfairness of shunning.
he is an elder and a substitute of the c.o.
he comes from a "highly decorated" family of jw's.
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never a jw
AnnOMaly,
You are right, that's as far as I can go. Here's the very last e-mail I sent
Mr. Elder,
As an avid student of the WT history and doctrine, especially anything related to the 1914 prophecy, I can assure you that most arguments don't boil down to opinion. But if you are avoiding the issue "for a good reason" I must give it a rest.
Just like in the Good Brahmin story by Voltaire, there are people today whose sole purpose is the pursuit of happiness. You may be able to handle that kind of life. I can't. Principle and truth are more important to me.
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Voltaire's "Story of the Good Brahmin" is an eloquent defense of the lowly philosopher. On the one hand, the Brahmin is upset that so much time pondering the big questions has left him nowhere; but on the other hand, he wouldn't trade places with his happy but unknowing neighbor. Here's a condensed version of the story, lifted from Durant's Story of Philosophy:"I wish I had never been born!" the Brahmin remarked.
"Why so?" said I.
"Because," he replied, "I have been studying these forty years, and I find that it has been so much time lost...I believe that I am composed of matter, but I have never been able to satisfy myself what it is that produces thought. I am even ignorant whether my understanding is a simple faculty like that of walking or digesting, or if I think with my head in the same manner as I take hold of a thing with my hands...I talk a great deal, and when I have done speaking I remain confounded and ashamed of what I have said."
The same day I had a conversation with an old woman, his neighbor. I asked her if she had ever been unhappy for not understanding how her soul was made? She did not even comprehend my question. She had not, for the briefest moment in her life, had a thought about these subjects with which the good Brahmin had so tormented himself. She believed in the bottom of her heart in the metamorphoses of Vishnu, and provided she could get some of the sacred water of the Ganges in which to make her ablutions, she thought herself the happiest of women. Struck with the happiness of this poor creature, I returned to my philosopher, whom I thus addressed:
"Are you not ashamed to be thus miserable when, not fifty yards from you, there is an old automaton who thinks of nothing and lives contented?"
"You are right," he replied. "I have said to myself a thousand times that I should be happy if I were but as ignorant as my old neighbor; and yet it is a happiness which I do not desire."
This reply of the Brahmin made a greater impression on me than anything that had passed.
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Thank you for your time Mr. Elder
